4.7 HO go BOOM!!!!

[HammerZ71]

Well I started a thread in the Ram section about my 4.7 dropping a valve seat and taking out cylinder #2. I am going to continue it here, where it should be - but this should be of interest to ALL 4.7 owners.

Finally got the heads off (and I'll be honest - this will be my LAST OHC modular engine!) I've gotten heads off of 4.0 I6s in an hour and a half. Took my over 7 hours to get the heads off this SOB!

As expected the aluminum head is toast. As suspected the piston in cylinder #2 is toast. What I found that I did not expect was that BOTH heads were done! Seems the valve seat exploded and debris went up into the intake manifold and made it to the other head.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll301/hammerz71/Jeep%20Photos/IMG239.jpg

and I don't think this piston is re-usable, LOL...

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll301/hammerz71/Jeep%20Photos/IMG235.jpg

So I got a local quote from a reputable shop on re-manning the heads and re-pressing all valve seats at $380 if I supply the seals. Found an all-inclusive master overhaul kit for $700 to the door - WITH 8 new, balanced pistons (might as well make this a TOTAL rebuild). So about the only other parts costs I'm gonna have are water pump and oil pump (again, the originals are ok, but with 102k on 'em I only wanna do this once) and then just plugs, fluids and filters...

I hope to have the kit tuesday so I can take the valve seals out and get them and the heads to the shop so I can get started...

[Cashman]

Ouch! That sucks man good luck with the rebuild!

[LB3711]

that sucks. my 4.7 was going strong with no issues at 106k

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[SmokedRam]

Dammit man!!!

[HammerZ71]

I've finally gotten over the being pissed phase that I was in due to an over well maintained, never abused, never overheated 4.7 would drop a valve at 102k miles and I'm actually looking forward to the rebuild as a project.

I have always said "make any repair a mod" and I wish I could on this one. I'd love to upgrade some components like a polished intake, heads and maybe even go with higher end cams than the HO's that are in it. Would be the perfect time to bore them cylinders out too since I'm gonna have to hone 'em a bit for new piston install. But alas, funds are VERY low and I'm basically going into hoc just for the standard rebuild and I need my daily driver on the road ASAP...

[AWE Daniel]

Damn sucks to see that, seems like the 4.7s just go crazy sometimes. I betchu will have it all fixed up and purty in no time!

[HammerZ71]

Hopefully the rebuild goes smooth. This here engine is a lot more complicated than the only other one I've ever done (4.0 I6).

Need to get it up and running, even though it's lifted 3", it still gets about 6 MPG better than my truck which is now my daily driver:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll301/hammerz71/Truck%20Photos/101_0092.jpg

[repoman]

looks almost like what happended to my truck my truck few weeks ago!

[HammerZ71]

looks almost like what happended to my truck my truck few weeks ago!

4.7 or Hemi?

I'm finding out that the valve seat issue in the 3.7 V6 and 4.7 V8 are a LOT more common than I ever thought.

A lot of times with even mild over-heats the valve seats go - the aluminum heads expand while the pressed-on, hardened steel seats don't and they just drop out - but they go unreported by vehicle owners because it's simply called "warped heads" by the mechanic. So A LOT of these head gasket and/or warped head issues we read about with the 4.7 all the time are in actuality the valve seat failure.

Although mine's never gotten over about 215* the whole time I've had it, so even though it's more common with over-heats, it can happen to any of 'em...

[repoman]

hemi....crank bearings let loose and nuked the wole thing heads and block...those 4.7's are a pain i heard alot of the dropping out like that....i got about 1400 in motor, parts as of now...since that 4.7 is based on a mercedes motor i wonder why right? chrysler droped the ball years ago....hemi issue is the same more in 03-04 years the famous "hemi tick" same things mopar ate the bill on that one 05+ they used better builds and parts to beef up the top ends on the hemi as far a 4.7s might take time but i think they did same thing in newer years

[HammerZ71]

Sadly, I'm seeing about the only good that came out of Daimler (Mercedes) ownership was the transmissions. Not perfect but a damn sight better'n them older Mopar transmissions...

[Onk]

Thread has been cleaned up and is back on track.

You are good Hammer!

[HammerZ71]

Thanks, Kev...

As I get going with the rebuild I'm obviously gonna do up to date posts over on the forum I run, but I'll do updates here as well, maybe just not as up to date.

I figure as I learn on this rebuild it'll help others. LOT of 4.7 owners 'round here...

[BAD HABIT]

It's unfortunate that we do have these problems with any make or model. Just sucks when it happens period, good luck Ed were all counting on ya.

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[HammerZ71]

Yeah I'm just hoping this rebuild kit ain't junk. But I was just under $640 to the door for everything less the two pumps. The kit is all DNJ except the timing kit which is PCI.

I've never heard of either of 'em, but then again I'm just an old lift and bolt-on mods guy.

I priced everything thru Mopar and I would have been at $2100 WITH ONLY replacing the one damaged piston. This kit I bought has all 8!

[HammerZ71]

Update:

Half the kit arrived yesterday, Rock Auto sent me the box with the valve seals overnight (but only charged me ground) so I could get the seals out with the heads to the shop for rebuild ASAP.

Except for the gaskets (which were made in Taiwan) all the components were domestic. I was particularly impressed with the pistons, which not only weighed out dead on but were teflon coated...

[repoman]

is it done yet?!?!?!

[HammerZ71]

is it done yet?!?!?!

Nope but for a good reason.

My out-of-work since November ass finally landed a F/T job. Tech at a Corvette/classic car center. So I can at least pay for all the damn parts/work I've had to do on this Jeep!

The heads are back from the shop BUT my $380 quote turned into $500 when they wouldn't back the rebuilt heads unless they REPLACED EVERY VALVE SEAT on both heads. So I told them to go ahead and I have a 3 yr/100k warranty on the heads.

I've torn down the engine the rest of the way (I had only taken off what I needed to get the heads off previously). The full over-haul kit has been here for about two weeks now. I just bought new plugs/filters/fluids and only have to get a water pump and upper/lower radiator hoses and I'll have ALL the parts. It's a good thing I bought the FULL OVER-HAUL Kit because I found that the timing chain tensioner was broken which I hadn't noticed till I went to take the chains off.

Did a fine hone on all 8 cylinders this week and that was good enough to take the scratch completely out of the bad cylinder so all is good there. I have pistons 1-5 in right now, so I have three to go there.

We have a tropical storm in the gulf and it's been raining off/on here and coupled with working f/t it's killing my work time! Next weekend I have to go up to the farm in Georgia so I won't be able to work on it then. I hope to have it done over the following weekend...

[BAD HABIT]

Good deal Ed, seems as though you are busy at work...keep it up and the jeep will be back on the road in no time...and then you'll be the 4.7 guru...

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[HammerZ71]

Just a heads up - seeing TOO MANY dropped valve seat threads popping up on DF, DAK and Jeep sites recently - mostly 1999-2002s as they are the ones getting up there on mileage to see them fail.

There is NO preventative steps you can take other than watch them operating temps!!!

Got a guy with a 2002 Ram on DF just laid out over $4000 to have his 4.7 rebuilt and they only had to re-man one head and only replaced one piston and that was at a local shop - not even dealer prices!!!!!!!!!!!

[HammerZ71]

Update:

Got a good bit done so far, this was my engine last week:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll301/hammerz71/IMG243.jpg

and this is it as of today, got all 8 pistons in and I'm about ready to tackle the heads:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll301/hammerz71/IMG250.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll301/hammerz71/IMG251.jpg

[HammerZ71]

Got that summbiotch rebuilt - low and behold it fired right up!!!

Sounds good too, ran it on and off for about an hour, rev'd it a couple of times up to about 3000 rpm.

I have some more work to do to button it up, have to figure out how to mount the two small pusher fans. Right now the upper radiator support and hood latch is just sitting on top as I lack about 1/4" of clearance from the fans and there are two upright supports I'm gonna have to refab. Some wiring to re-do. But at least the bitch runs!!!

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll301/hammerz71/IMG264.jpg

[AWE Daniel]

Congrats Hammer that looks like quite the job!

[BAD HABIT]

Hell yeah, we got another 287cc guru now...

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[HammerZ71]

I have a bad feeling we all are going to be before long, Jay. The Jeep forums are filling up with guys with 4.7s getting up in miles that are dropping valve seats (3.7s too). Remember they started putting 4.7s in Grand Cherokees in 1999, three years before Rams and it's mainly the 99s-02s that I'm seeing. Most have over-heated at some point, but some, like mine have not.

DF has had a few '02 & '03 Rams recently. One guy had his '02 Ram done at the dealer who only bought a re-manned head on the one side that failed and only rebuilt the one cylinder that failed - didn't rebuild the entire engine like I did - and soaked the guy for $4400!!! I got a feeling it's a matter of time before one of the seats on the other side drops as he had an overheat 4 months prior to his seat drop.

I hope I'm wrong - but I got a feeling we are going to start seeing this more and more.
BTW - the HEMI is not immune either as I've seen a couple do it - but the Hemi just seems to be more resistant due to it's pushrod design. The OHC engines are really suffering after what I would consider just mild overheats!
I've got it from a mod on DF who is a full time Chrysler tech in CA. (who helped me quite a bit with questions I had during my rebuild) who is seeing it almost daily and also tells me the new Pentastar V6 has the problem as well. He says EVERY aluminum head engine developed during Daimler (Mercedes) ownership suffers from the problem...

[Fla 66 cuda]

My hats off to ya rebuilding it in the vehicle thats gotta be a b---h i would never do that. Good job!

[AWE Daniel]

Hell yeah, we got another 287cc guru now...

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Dirt bike guru? Lol jmwy I know you meant ci

[garner]

Glad it's fixed!

When I was at my sister's house on the 4th I told her about this(she has a 04 gc with 102,000 miles but has the 4.0 as does her husband with his 03) and she said she's glad my aunt didn't order her one with the 4.7 as she just had her fuel pump go out but the shop mistested it so they replaced a bunch of unneeded stuff

[BAD HABIT]

yall know what i meant, yeah i hope this doesnt happen to me, HEMI here i come if it does, lord let me pay it off first...

[HammerZ71]

UPDATE:

Sorry it's been so long since I posted. Jeep ran like a champ for a week then one of the rebuilt heads failed! Shop thinks the guy pulled specs for regular 4.7 heads and not HO. Luckily it stalled as soon as the head failed, so damage was minimal. Rocker arm snapped and took the valve clean off at the stem. Free floating valve just barely nicked the new piston.
Shop took full responsibiltiy and re-re-manned the head, including paying another shop to remove it and re-install it. HOWEVER, they refused to pay for removal or even look at the other head because it hadn't failed - YET!

So anyway when I got it back it wasn't running the same as after my rebuild. RPMs at idle were down and it wanted to stall at lights UNLESS the AC was on to keep idle up a hair. PLUS I just didn't trust the other head, feeling if they spec'd one head wrong - they surely spec'd them both wrong.

Put it up for sale for $7500 and took the first guy's offer of $6500. Told him up-front about the total rebuild but I didn't volunteer that one of the rebuilt heads had to be re-rebuilt. Let him test it to his hearts content before buying it though.

Used $2500 of the $6500 to pay off my rebuild costs and put the other $4000 down on a new Hyundai 4 banger to be my new daily driver. Obviously isn't as fun to drive as a lifted, V8, 4x4 Grand Cherokee, but my gas credit card bill for the first month was $80 lighter than normal.

This is what I found when I towed the thing back home and removed the valve cover: At least proving my low end rebuild was solid and the head was indeed what failed. As you remember cylinder 2 was the one that originally failed, this valve is on cylinder 7.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll301/hammerz71/IMG266.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll301/hammerz71/IMG267.jpg


The new daily driver, after two full tanks of gas is averaging just shy of 40 mpg:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll301/hammerz71/Untitled-4.jpg

[BAD HABIT]

That suck Ed, congrats on the sale and purchase, its prolly nice having a gas sipper around.

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[HammerZ71]

That suck Ed, congrats on the sale and purchase, its prolly nice having a gas sipper around.

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Yeah, honestly I needed two lifted, V8, 4x4s like I need a hole in the head. I almost bought an '08 Wrangler when I sold the Grand Cherokee BUT I'm hearing the 3.7s are as bad if not worse than the 4.7s with the head issues - not to mention the new Pentastar is having failed heads like crazy.

My new daily driver is what a DD is supposed to be, a gas sipper and reliable. 10/100,000 powertrain, 5/60,000 bumper to bumper and free oil changes for life up to 4x a year. Plugs and tranny are 100,000 mile change intervals and the dealer had a $99 deal for nitrogen in the tires that includes five years of tire warranty replacement, road side service and even hotel re-imbursement if I have a flat more than 50 miles from home - plus free tire rotations/nitrogen adding and inspections once a year for those five years. So for 5 years I'll have NO expense with this car except for gas.

Was a shame that the shop fucked up my head(s) though, upon completion of the rebuild and giving it a little time for the rings to seat we pulled compression and it was 190 PSI on EVERY cylinder. Had the shop not screwed up this rebuild would have probably outlasted me!

[ORT]

UPDATE:

Shop thinks the guy pulled specs for regular 4.7 heads and not HO. Rocker arm snapped and took the valve clean off at the stem. Free floating valve just barely nicked the new piston.

RPMs at idle were down and it wanted to stall at lights UNLESS the AC was on to keep idle up a hair. PLUS I just didn't trust the other head, feeling if they spec'd one head wrong - they surely spec'd them both wrong.

I didn't volunteer (to the buyer) that one of the rebuilt heads had to be re-rebuilt.



You are the definition of an underhanded seller. Selling that guy a vehicle that you know is going to have a head failure is low class all the way.

[BAD HABIT]

I did a good amount of research on the pentastar, and only a handful of issues were out there, ill let you know how they pan out, I have one in our new journey. The guys at dodge told me they were gonna replace the 4.7l in our ram trucks with the pentastar cause it has more hp and the reliability.....well see.....

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[AWE Daniel]

The new pentastars are having some problems with dropping the #2 cylinders, they recalled a bunch and said they fixed what was causing it.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[ORT]

I did a good amount of research on the pentastar, and only a handful of issues were out there, ill let you know how they pan out, I have one in our new journey. The guys at dodge told me they were gonna replace the 4.7l in our ram trucks with the pentastar cause it has more hp and the reliability.....well see.....

BAD HABITS BADASS EVO ON TAPATALK TRANSPARENT...

The new pentastars are having some problems with dropping the #2 cylinders, they recalled a bunch and said they fixed what was causing it.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Oh no way, you know what I heard is having some reliability problems? The 4.7 jeep with an f'ed up head that Ed sold to the new owner without disclosing it.

[SmokedRam]

It is my understanding that the 4.7 is being redesigned cause Dosge doesn't want the Hemi being the only V8 option in the Ram.

[RamminRon]

The 2013 Rams have a new 305 hp V-6 PENTASTAR...Getting Great reviews,with that hp you really don't need a smaller V-8 option to the Hemi...

[AWE Daniel]

Oh no way, you know what I heard is having some reliability problems? The 4.7 jeep with an f'ed up head that Ed sold to the new owner without disclosing it.

You have made your opinion known, please refrain from any more inflammatory posts.

[SmokedRam]

The 2013 Rams have a new 305 hp V-6 PENTASTAR...Getting Great reviews,with that hp you really don't need a smaller V-8 option to the Hemi...

I would agree with that, it's also rated to give 1 more MPG than a V6 F150 at 18MPG city. However, those figures are with that new 8spd transmission. They haven't released any MPG estimates with the Ram V6 and the 6spd trans yet.

[AWE Daniel]

The Dodge ceo mentioned the Cherokee is coming out with a 3.0l diesel sometime 2013, a ram can't be too far behind.

[ORT]

You have made your opinion known, please refrain from any more inflammatory posts.

Didn't realize there is a limit to how many times we can share our opinion on a topic. Good to know.

[ORT]

BTW, knowingly selling a vehicle that is messed up is a douchebag move. Every single person on here knows that if you were the one who got stuck with it you would feel the same way and be pissed. Pathetic how you are going to just pretend like it is fine to knowingly sell a f'ed up vehicle so as to not upset poor Hammer. Thanks for reminding me why I cant stand forums that are more worried about being everyone's friend than sharing honest opinions. Hope that isn't too inflammatory.

[SmokedRam]

BTW, knowingly selling a vehicle that is messed up is a douchebag move. Every single person on here knows that if you were the one who got stuck with it you would feel the same way and be pissed. Pathetic how you are going to just pretend like it is fine to knowingly sell a f'ed up vehicle so as to not upset poor Hammer. Thanks for reminding me why I cant stand forums that are more worried about being everyone's friend than sharing honest opinions. Hope that isn't too inflammatory.


Agreed...

[AWE Daniel]

It is fine to share your opinion but adding insulting remarks is not allowed. You didn't get a response when you first posted, then you posted again and again looking for a response.

Your opinion is not what is at question here.

[ORT]

It is fine to share your opinion but adding insulting remarks is not allowed. You didn't get a response when you first posted, then you posted again and again looking for a response.

Your opinion is not what is at question here.

How about instead of worrying about the type of response I am or am not looking for, you stop shielding a guy who knowingly is selling a vehicle with an issue to an unsuspecting buyer BC you don't want "inflammatory" comments being made. Let's man up and actually be allowed to share our opinion even when it is negative. Unless of course you are OK with selling a vehicle to a buyer when it is going to have a failure. Is that the case, are you OK with what he is doing?

[AWE Daniel]

I dont know what you are referring to by "shielding", opinions are welcome no matter what they are, but you are not allowed to make personal insults directed at another member. I dont know of any forum that allows that.

[ORT]

So since opinions are welcome, how about you share your opinion then since you are so eager to admonish mine. How do YOU feel about what he did? How do you feel about the type of person who sells someone a vehicle with a known defect? I am anxious to hear your opinion of that type of person.

[AWE Daniel]

My opinion does not matter, and I said multiple times that I did not have a problem with your opinion, only your manner.

[SmokedRam]

OKay guys...I am gonna close this thread til an admin can look at it and see where he wants to go from there.

[SmokedRam]

If there are any questions, please feel free to PM me...

[BAD HABIT]

This will remain closed, everyone said there part. And all are valid but let it be known, opinions are such, no personal attacks will be tolerated no matter who, they are from or towards.

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